Why So Damn Slow Toyobaru?

"pfftballer" (pfftballer)
12/05/2013 at 11:02 • Filed to: None

I'm regretting my FR-S purchase after a couple months. I wish there was a way to give this thing some much needed grunt at a practical RPM. Sure, 200HP is good but what good is it when you have to be revving to 7000RPM to get it? It has similar power and torque in the part of the rev range you use most often to my old 1997 Dodge Neon ACR coupe. From 3-5k RPM it is utterly gutless. Sure it handles nice but the car is a big disappointment to me.

DISCUSSION (82)

William Byrd > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:06

That's too bad, those are really neat cars. I drove one awhile back and enjoyed it, but it was not a very long drive. I hear there's a new Mustang in the offing! :)

Brian Silvestro > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:06

This is the first thing I've ever seen that isn't utter praise about this car from an owner. I'm glad people are starting to give their truthful opinions.

6shelBfan6 > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:06

Some low end torque would most likely help more than HP.

Montalvo > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:06

They need some turbos on that ASAP. Not massive ones but something to give it a little kick. If they could get like 250hp and around 200ftlb lower in the rev range it would make a better case for itself.

For Sweden > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:07

Prepare for Oppo rage, because it's coming.

davedave1111 > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:07

Sounds like there's something badly wrong with your car, in that case. My guess is that the problem is the bit that connects the steering wheel, pedals, seat, and shifter.

Easy to fix, though: you need to hoon more.

Anon > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:07

I drive a 110 HP mini cooper! You do not even comprehend the meaning of slow!

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:10

I suppose you'll still get decent money on a turn in for a new mustang when it comes out?

The Jevans > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:11

I understand it should have been fixed from the factory, but a good header and tune will fix that right up.

Shoop > William Byrd
12/05/2013 at 11:12

orly? I hadn't heard.

HammerheadFistpunch > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:13

my abiding memory of it from my test drive was...come on come on come on.

pauljones > davedave1111
12/05/2013 at 11:14

That was uncalled for.

Cixelsyd > Brian Silvestro
12/05/2013 at 11:15

Car & Driver left it off their ten best this year, saying after they had lived with it for a while, they realized it was only average or below average in a bunch of categories, and the handling, while great, couldn't make up for those shortcomings.

Brian Silvestro > Cixelsyd
12/05/2013 at 11:16

I wondered why it wasn't on some of those lists

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Anon
12/05/2013 at 11:16

Oh, so we're playing this game now? 90 whp when new jetta owner here. Come at me, bro!

vdub_nut: scooter snob > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
12/05/2013 at 11:23

I walk.

dinobot666 > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:25

My '04 WRX was the same way. It was gutless until the turbo spooled up, but it didn't have the fancy pants handling your FR-S has.

gbbts > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:27

You should have bought a car with bigger engine or a turbocharged one if you expect more mid range torque.

If you plan to modify you Toyobaru, I would suggest a supercharger kit. It will give you the extra punch you miss right now.

maximillious > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:31

I felt that when I test drove it too. I was underwhelmed by the entire experience. Which is why i bought the ST.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > vdub_nut: scooter snob
12/05/2013 at 11:34

I once drove my grandpa's old V8-6-4 cadillac. He said it was too slow. This is the man who thought all freeways should be limited to 45. A pair of running shoes will get you anywhere much faster, much more reliably, and with much less cost than malaise era V8 oddities like the GM diesels or the V8-6-4 cadillacs.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:37

I wouldn't be surprised if a turbo version drops after the next WRX/STI has had it's day in the sun, and the product cycle moves on from that limelight, but not before that.

And frankly, I have always thought that this car deserved a tuned and direct injected EZ-family flat 6 engine.

I have been a sometimes lambasted critic of this car having to make excuses for it's lack of power since it's details became public information...

Not to mention the fact that the RWD version should have been built for Toyota/Scion, and the Subaru coupe should have stuck with an Impreza-derived AWD layout, and it would have been the only affordable new AWD coupe on the market.

Milky > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:40

Don't worry bro the new Mustang is right around the corner, sounds perfect for you.

Dugg-117 > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:40

Intake+Uneven Headers+Tune+???=Profit

pfftballer > Milky
12/05/2013 at 11:42

Yeah, thanks for the bro-tastic comment.

pfftballer > davedave1111
12/05/2013 at 11:46

Hooning it is fun. Been there done that, you also aren't likely to find fault with my driving credentials as I hold local SCCA titles and a club racing license. The problem is the power is not where it needs to be. My last "fun car" was a Volvo 240 turbo wagon. Despite it's open differential it was at least as fun if not as capable in the handling dept.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:46

Trade for a Genesis Coupe :D

pfftballer > 6shelBfan6
12/05/2013 at 11:46

I agree completely.

pfftballer > For Sweden
12/05/2013 at 11:47

I fully expect it, but I'm entitled to my opinion. I'll listen to theirs too.

DocWalt > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:49

If you're willing to risk warranty, get a header and a tune. Heck, even a tune should wake it up nicely.

I owned an old Supra, a VR-4, an Evo X, a Street Triple, and a GTI before buying my BRZ. The "slow" GTI conditioned me well, haha. The torque dip is noticeable, but honestly, for driving to work, it's perfectly acceptable.

Milky > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:51

No problem, just being helpful when I can.

pfftballer > The Jevans
12/05/2013 at 11:51

Maybe, but I don't want it to sound obnoxious. All of the header offerings I've seen have a bit of an annoying exhaust note. I've driven my share of loud cars so I'm not judging, I'm just not into that anymore.

Turk > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 11:52

As others have said, I like the honesty. But seriously, this is pretty typical and something I keep reminding myself when I think about getting rid of my '04 GTO. Longish story condensed as best I can below.

When I bought it (used w 30k miles) and with every test drive up to that, the torque was a kick in the pants. The handling and ride comfort were a cut above any other muscle car I'd experienced at the time and recalled heavier BMW products. The gearbox felt beefy but manageable.

Fast forward a few months. I'd autocrossed it a few times and blew the clutch slave cylinder at around 37k miles, removed trans and replaced the $70 part with my housemate at the time. No biggy, enjoyed for a while more with no major headaches. Blew a rear tire after a long day of burnouts, clutchdrops and donuts with another gearhead buddy. Started autocrossing more, and while I had fun every time, I quickly realized the body roll and sogginess of the heavy beast on the tight course... and then when suspensions components started failing (front shocks around 50k miles, and mildly sagging rear springs) I swapped to coilovers and adjustable sway bars. Driveshaft guibo and diff clutches wore out and gave me another excuse for an upgrade (1-piece alloy shaft and torsen-style diff). Somewhere along the line the clutch PP went out also, so I upgraded to a lighter LS7 alloy flywheel and corresponding clutch and PP. Started road coursing it and quickly discovered my brakes were completely, utterly inadequate- got used wilwood 6-pistons for the front and more or less all good now.

What am I getting at (also tl;dr): You are on oppo. You will never be able to leave any kind of well enough alone. If instead of the toyobaru, you'd gotten something with perfect power/tq, you would be kicking yourself over the handling and throwing money at upgrades there. If you'd gotten something practical, you'd be shopping for a track rat extra vehicle. If you got a perfect GT, you'd be trying to make it more trackworthy, if you got a perfect track car you'd be looking at a spare / partsrunner / DD.

So if the toyobaru is really that bad, get rid of it, get a vanilla DD or tow vehicle and build a 7 / stripped 240SX, rx, miata, stang, whatever. If it's not really that bad, just hoon and repeat. More autocrossing is a reasonable substitute for more power by the way, but there's nothing wrong with the two together.

carsandmusic > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
12/05/2013 at 11:56

75hp Audi A2... Let's not talk about whp or I will become depressive!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > carsandmusic
12/05/2013 at 11:57

but does it have quattro?

carsandmusic > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
12/05/2013 at 11:58

Obviously

not.

Kinja'd!!!

(Picture from Wikipedia)

pfftballer > Turk
12/05/2013 at 11:58

Thanks for the intelligent comment. I think I'm just going to keep it stock and tolerate it until my son turns 16 and give it to him. Hopefully the new Corvettes will have depreciated some by then.

Oh and I've already built a 7 a few years ago.

Kinja'd!!!

davedave1111 > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 12:00

"you also aren't likely to find fault with my driving credentials as I hold local SCCA titles and a club racing license"

Pfft, I can find fault with anything. I bet you were sitting on the wrong (left) side of the car when you got them, so they don't count ;)

Seriously, though, it's not about what we normally think of as driving ability, but the ability to adapt your driving style to enjoy (almost) any car. Being a motoring slut, in other words.

If you're driving on highways a lot, you might have brought the wrong car.

Kinja'd!!!

Otherwise, it's about keeping your speed up so you don't need the power, which you can do thanks to the handling, and being in the right gear for the powerband. You might need to get used to being in a gear lower than what you're used to - than what sounds right when you listen to the engine note - when you're pressing on.

My little brother had a similar problem with a Fiat Twinair, until I said the same thing. It takes a bit of getting used to when the powerband is above the red line in most engines.

Do you think the Toybaru would be better with 180bhp and a smoother torque curve, out of interest? To me that would make it worse.

duurtlang > carsandmusic
12/05/2013 at 12:02

54 hp VW Golf. I hardly ever considered it slow when I was daily driving it, which I did until last year.

I had it on an unrestricted part of the German Autobahn last year, it had 4 grown guys inside. It was a bit lacking in the power department then. Luckily the other car of our party was a Mercedes 200D (w124), which is roughly as fast as my Golf. 70 hp and a lot more weight if I'm not mistaken.

YSI-what can brown do for you > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 12:04

What you said about 3 to 5K is true. There is a dip in torque, one way to get rid of it is to get a tune+headers, it should give you 15ish hp give or take 5, and give about 5 to 10 hp throughout the revs.

If you have the big bucks and don't care about warranty. . . supercharge that bitch.

Forgetful > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 12:05

I bought an FR-S. Ultramarine too. This was after starting shopping for a E60 M5 (V10 500hp) and test driving a Focus ST. I have no regrets.

If you do the exhaust front to back and get the Ecutek tune, not only will you eliminate the torque dip, but you'll gain a couple dozen HP and the tune will add autoblip revmatching. There are exhausts that aren't loud but still give you nice gains.

Beyond that there are several good turbo or supercharger kits that will give you what you want. You can go up to 300hp before you'll need a better clutch. All that and it still comes in cheaper than the Focus.

If you're like me, there are just too many Mustangs out there, but it is just a car so if you're not happy it can be sold/traded.

carsandmusic > duurtlang
12/05/2013 at 12:19

Yeah, it's amazing to see how fast you can drive with that little amount of power...

To be honest, it's my mom's car that I drive from time to time (since I live in a city and don't need a car - and simply couldn't afford it). It's more or less practical, light, has enough power for city traffic but that's about it. It is boring to drive, you ride quite high and the suspension is reeeaaallyyy soft... Can't wait to own a car again!

Forgetful > Forgetful
12/05/2013 at 12:23

Also, with the right exhaust you'll want to live above 4k rpm all of the time.

YSI-what can brown do for you > YSI-what can brown do for you
12/05/2013 at 12:29

As reference here are the headers I am getting.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthr…

Apparently they made 18hp over stock(base for this car is for 165 to 170). . .

WorldRally17 > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 12:37

There is a pretty big gap in torque between an FR-S and an SRT-4 (150lb-ft vs. 240lb-ft). I own an FR-S and it never really feels slow to me, but my previous car was an '06 Mazda 3. I guess it all depends on what you're used to. Apparently opening up the intake/exhaust is supposed to help mid-range torque. I just changed the mufflers on mine and it made a small difference, but i'm not sure how much bigger of a difference changing the cat or intake would make.

bhardoin > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 12:58

Get used to shifting later?

Casper > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 13:07

So tune it up? I honestly have no idea what's wrong with you. You bought the car knowing it was a traditional lower power handling coupe... this is the same as the people who buy Miatas then complain about the lack of power.

If you wanted more power, why didn't you just buy an S2000? For a few grand you can bump the FR-S to about 300 HP easy enough... but I suspect there is more of a driver issue than car issue. I think you just have buyers remorse or over inflated expectations.

Makoyouidiot > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 13:20

I'll trade you my wife's '13 Mazda3 hatch for it!

Anon > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
12/05/2013 at 13:21

Yeah but your jetta probobly weighed less!

pfftballer > Casper
12/05/2013 at 13:35

"I think you just have buyers remorse or over inflated expectations"

Yeah, that's pretty much what I said.

Casper > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 13:46

My point is that it's not the car, it's you. The car is fine for what it was, you just didn't really process it before you bought it.

As someone that does I a lot of performance driving, I would have thought you would have taken issue with the bigger flaws: materials and chassis. The flex in the firewall under hard braking and body flex are far bigger issues than the power. At 200HP and 2800lbs it is a decent match for most cars in it's class.

Vin > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 13:57

This is a car that's meant to be worked on. REAL work, not just rims.

Get crackin', mate.

Rico > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 14:05

Are you looking to adopt? I am already way past 16 if that matters!

pfftballer > Casper
12/05/2013 at 14:17

So far I think the chassis is fine. Mine seems stiff as a board right now but maybe they lose their edge I dunno. It feels like a caged car in terms of rigidity compared to my old C5. And coming from Corvettes and old Volvos the materials seem fine apart from the crappy seat fabric that looks like a set of Pep Boys seat covers. My only real beef with the car is the profound lack of mid range torque.

Casper > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 14:30

See, it seems like every 2.0 NA 4 cylinder car I have driven that is high comp like they are. Generally that's why I turbo charge my small engine cars with a nice low spooling turbo.

I managed to flex one of the Toyoburus hard enough to crack the tail lights. It let the trunk lid press down in the upper corners of the lenses. At first it was just scuffs, but eventually they cracked and had to be replaced. Dealer took care of it because it was obvious it wasn't my fault, but stopped short of acknowledging it was a design fault.

Stiffening upgrades are by far some of the most common I have seen people focusing on (other than tires). You can really sharpen the car up with a few hundred bucks in braces (mostly from the bottom side).

highmodulus > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 15:09

There are good supercharger and turbo kits for the FT86 twins should you want to add some hot sauce to your gumbo.

Turk > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 15:34

Nibbles got your photo, but I will assume your 7 was thoroughly awesome unless/until proof of the contrary is provided.

On the other hand, as a low-entry-cost kinda-fun car that you can later hand down to your kid, I don't know if there's much better out there than the toyabaru. My 1900 lb, 16-year old at the time VW Scirocco with all of 90 hp would've been the same kind of perfect had my old man had the foresight to buy new, just less by a few degrees (less balance and more wrong-wheel-drive).

pfftballer > Turk
12/05/2013 at 15:41

True, I think it will be a decent car for him. It's easy to find the handling limit at low speeds and the power shouldn't get him in trouble.

Here's a different pic of the 7. (It was a scratch build, not a kit)

Kinja'd!!!

signintokinjalol > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 16:16

You didn't take a highway exit at 100MPH yet huh?

Oh, don't do that on stock rubber, you'll just oversteer into the forest.

pfftballer > signintokinjalol
12/05/2013 at 16:24

Yeah those tires are garbage.

Mikeado > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 16:49

It was never shooting for impressive numbers, and the engine was designed that way because it's fun to rev the hell out of the engine. It seems that you're used to cars with a wider torque band than this, so if it's not what you're used to then that's understandable.

But hey, there's always the aftermarket turbo kit ;-)

tinfoilinplasticwrap > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 17:15

In a fast car, you can break the speed limit easily and you'll be stuck cruising in the lower RPMs which is boring.

Dusty Ventures > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 17:17

Kinja'd!!!

Part of the problem is there's a dip in the power band from about 3000-4500 RPM, particularly in the torque. Nameless Performance has some stuff that help eliminate the dip, plus more being developed and tested through their rally program. Give them a year and they'll probably have stuff on the market that will give 250-300 AT THE WHEELS without a turbo, along with a better overall power curve.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

pfftballer > Dusty Ventures
12/05/2013 at 17:30

I hope you're right sir.

Dusty Ventures > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 17:43

The power dip being gone is already a thing, I've experienced it firsthand. Their current stuff already gets you up to about 190 hp at the wheels (230 at the crank), and the upcoming stuff I saw when visiting their shop will be huge.

Squid > Dusty Ventures
12/05/2013 at 19:16

I wonder if that has to do with the cats or just the header and exhaust design. I know that S2000's have the same sort of dip right before Vtec kicks in, yo!. . . From what I've seen eliminating the cat and running a dirty car takes care of that dip, a highflow cat still gives the dip but it isn't as pronounced as it is with a stock cat.

Getting to a point where there is a flatish torque torque and power curve will probably do a lot towards the feel of the car and probably satisfy some people who think the car is too slow. . .

Squid > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 19:22

Here is a chart that shows the Miata is nothing better than a 90 horsepower car until 4500 rpm. At 3500 the Miata is a 65 horsepower car. . . A minivan can beat me off the line. . .

Enjoy the handling, forget the speed unless you are brave and want to go the FI route then I say carry on and make massive power. . .

pfftballer > DocWalt
12/05/2013 at 19:31

Well I'm sadly coming off a C5 and a batch of highly boosted rwd redblock volvos. Last really fast car I had was a Lotus 7 replica. What appealed to me in the Toyobaru was optimism carried over from my 1200lb 150HP seven (lightweight with low power) that felt like a rocket ship compared to this thing. Someone should be shot for that hole in the torque curve at 3000 RPM. My 1994 lightly worked over Volvo 940 turbo wagon was more fun.

Dusty Ventures > Squid
12/05/2013 at 19:41

Probably a combination of the cat and the headers. I know they do suggest starting with this downpipe to help counteract the torque dip. That said though, they showed me a CAD cross-section of the Toyobaru engine block an the outlet for the front two cylinders actually exits at an angle, going toward the front of the car, while the outlet for the rear two goes straight out, meaning gasses have a longer way to go at the front to leave the block. The stock headers and most aftermarket headers (including supposed "equal length" headers) do nothing to counteract this. The new Nameless equal length headers on the other hand take this disparity into account, negating it with the header design. I'm sure that helps sizably as well

pfftballer > Squid
12/05/2013 at 19:41

But look at how flat that torque curve is compared to this:

Kinja'd!!!

See that big dip there from 3-5k rpm in both power and torque, there's your problem. I digress, I had a lotus 7 replica with the 1.8 Miata drivetrain in it and it was insane fun. Imagine a Miata minus 700lbs. That being said I've never had a car with two torque peaks. You take off and the FR-S pulls for a few seconds and then when it gets to 3500rpm just falls on it's face at which point I usually just get out of the throttle in utter disappointment. However if you stick it out and hold it to the floor for the several seconds it takes to get from 3500 to 5500 rpm it hits and takes off. So you basically have to rev it to the freaking moon just to access the moderate HP available. It gets tiring.

Squid > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 19:46

Honestly there is probably a restriction in the exhaust most likely with the headers and cat. That could cause the dip in power. The s2k's dip isn't as drastic nor is it as pronounced but the cat is the issue on that car. . .

Kinja'd!!!

Squid > Dusty Ventures
12/05/2013 at 19:49

That just seems like a silly design to put into an engine. . .

I know by the time I can afford a BRZ the issues will be all sorted out and I won't have to worry about the first year issues and people will have figured out how to extract maximum power out of them.

pfftballer > Squid
12/05/2013 at 19:51

All I'm saying is go drive one. Not on the track or open road, but in traffic around town. You'll swear you're driving a Dodge Neon. Actually, after cams and exhaust the Neon was a lot better. My fleet of rwd Volvo turbos were all a lot better around town. This thing would be fun at the track but for a DD it sucks donkey balls.

Dusty Ventures > Squid
12/05/2013 at 19:54

It was required to get around the suspension or something like that. I can't remember exactly but basically something was in the way.

pfftballer > tinfoilinplasticwrap
12/05/2013 at 19:56

Which speaks to the old adage that "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." Whoever said this wasn't driving a FR-S in traffic getting out-merged by SUVs.

Squid > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 19:58

fair enough. I have yet to be able to drive one so I don't know how they are at all. Maybe I'll have to go see if I can finagle a test drive out of a dealer.

pfftballer > Squid
12/05/2013 at 20:02

Do that. My prediction is that you'll soon see some piling up there. Check the scion lots first since the BRZ is in greater demand due to greater fanboy marketplace demand. Fucksakes nobody wants to be seen driving a Scion.

Squid > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 20:21

Hahaha, I don't think there is a subie dealer around me right now. But I will end up checking out the scion dealer, I don't know how receptive they will be though since I do live in a college town. But maybe showing up in a miata a sales guy may take pity and let me drive one.

I'm sure there are people that are sick of any first year/first gen issues that are coming out of the woodwork, but by the time I'll be able to afford one all the kinks will be worked out and the aftermarket should be able to pick up the slack.

If I were to buy a new one I would probably go with the BRZ just because it seems like the trim options were better and seemed worth it to me. I like HIDs and being able to see at night is nice since I enjoy canyon carving at night.

Squid > Dusty Ventures
12/05/2013 at 20:26

I know it was a compromise most likely but did they really know what type of impact they would have on the damn power curves when they engineered the thing?

After working as a tech, I got pissed off at the automotive engineers to the point that I wanted to punch the first Ford engineer I met in the face for making my life harder. I swear that the automotive engineers and the damn accountants are out to make the technicians lives harder. It seems like a whole bunch of those engineers never think about servicing a part that they engineer so they never design room to take parts off. It hurts my feelings. . .

It still doesn't change the fact that they left a huge glaring issue that the aftermarket can correct and make better though. . .

pfftballer > Squid
12/05/2013 at 20:28

I've driven both and the BRZ is a smoother more predictable ride. The FR-S by comparison is much more tightly wound and gives a rougher ride that is more likely to step out on you than hook up and go. (read very prone to oversteer) This in many people's eyes makes it more fun, but I'd rather not have to steer opposite lock if not needed. If you want to be a closet drifter this is your car. That sounds fun and all until you are grabbing a gear to merge into tight traffic and find yourself going sideways. It's not got me into trouble but it has earned me more than my share of dirty looks.

Squid > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 20:36

Hahaha yeah I forgot that was the other reason why I would look to the BRZ. I steped the rear out of my miata the other day slaming into second gear, first time it has done that to me, and I'm sure I got some dirty looks.

Oversteer is fun if you know what to do with it, but I kinda like grip. Maybe it is my lack of experience with going out and doing doughnuts and controlling the rear from getting out from under me, but I still like gripping a corner rather than turning my rears into smoke while sliding around a corner.

DocWalt > pfftballer
12/05/2013 at 20:53

Yeah... I can see why you'd feel that way. Add F/I then, heh

Sian > pfftballer
12/06/2013 at 16:20

Put..put in an STi 2.5 EJ257 turbo in it. It will no longer be slow and your power comes on 2000 rpm earlier.